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#35 Punk Rock Skepticism

35_Garrat

We spoke with Nicky Garratt, guitarist for the legendary punk band, the UK Subs, who also happens to be an outspoken skeptic.

Does speaking out against pseudoscience, magical thinking and unexamined beliefs get in the way of damning the man?

And, by popular demand, we introduced our new semi-regular segment Ask a Pharmacist with Scott Gavura. Answering all the questions you’d ask your own pharmacist, if the line wasn’t so long.

Listen or Download This Episode

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8 Comments so far
  1. UK Subs!?!?

    Colour me jealous!

    That one beats Randall Monroe in this ex-punk-rock-kid’s Clash-deafened ears.

    by Kennedy · on November 25, 2009 at 2:30 pm

  2. Hi Scott,

    Thank you for taking these questions. I’m hoping you can give us some insight into what pharmacists think about an issue that has bothered me for quite a while.

    Considering that pharmacies are an important part of our health care system, why are so many pharmacies selling a highly addictive, carcinogenic product that is by far the leading preventable cause of death in Canada? Is there anything pharmacists or the public can do to stop the sale of cigarettes at the same locations where health care professionals like yourself dispense medication to treat cancer and heart disease.

    Earlier this year the Australian Skeptics wrote an open letter to their pharmacists about the sale of ear candles. They pointed out that “Health Canada has banned [ear candles] in Canada.” and then asked “What next, will you start selling cigarettes?”

    I’m glad pharmacies in Canada don’t sell ear candles, but wouldn’t those be far safer than the tobacco products that have killed over 45,000 Canadians a year? [1998 Health Canada numbers]

    Is there anything pharmacists or the public can do about this?

    Thank you,

    -Fred

    by Fred Bremmer · on November 25, 2009 at 7:10 pm

  3. So I hear that Nicky Garratt wants to know why I didn’t become a doctor instead of a massage therapist.

    Good question. Fair question.

    And a question I am happy to answer. Since I missed the show live tonight, and the podcast will be a couple days, I’m flying a bit blind here. I don’t know exactly how Nicky put the question, but it’s a routine and reasonable skeptical question about allegedly skeptical alt-med professionals. I’ve heard it before.

    If I could time travel, I’d go back and tell myself to go to medical school. Absolutely. I would pull a Marty McFly and slap my past self around into shape (starting with a copy of Demon-Haunted World). Unfortunately, I am sans Delorian.

    Exposure to alternative medicine is the main thing that has turned me a skeptic over the years, but I was already up to my eyeballs in student loan debt by the time I realized that I’d wandered into an intellectually dark alley.

    Also, because I lean away from incense and Enya, I quickly earned a clientele consisting of a quite a few UBC scientists. I learned to love science by working with those clients. From them, I learned that scientists are smart, neat people. (See http://SaveYourself.ca/dear_scientists )

    Their thinking impressed me. It reeked of quality. It was a slow-motion revelation, and the woo pushers were starting to look downright absurd by comparison. How well I remember the day that a colleague tried to interest me in a psychic who could heal carpal tunnel syndrome by telephone for the modest fee of an arm and a leg. The more I saw of this kind of thing in alternative health care, and the more I got to know scientists, the more skeptical I got, and the more I talked about it with scientists, and the more I learned … a delicious cycle.

    And then, as you all heard when Des interviewed me Nov 6, almost inevitably, I got into trouble for the allegedly “offensive” analyses of controversial issues that I publish on SaveYourself.ca, and that’s when I really started to “get it” as a skeptic. That’s what got me to TAM!

    Ever since, I’ve been embroiled in the implications of the regulatory investigation of my website. And so the last few months have also been awesomely productive for me as a skeptic. The case is a lightning rod for important discussions and a beautiful opportunity to shine light on controversies — something that always happens whenever anyone, anywhere, tries to limit free and open debate.

    by Paul Ingraham · on November 28, 2009 at 11:05 am

  4. My comment was made with some puzzlement but with the best intentions. Thank you for your most candid response. Your contention that there is “not an awful lot of good evidence and science based care for pain problems” is sadly well taken. My tenant of seven years died (at the age of 35), last year after about four years of excruciating pain. The aid from her primary care giver was glaringly deficient. Her counsel, to my horror, extended to recommending acupuncture, which squandered her diminishing resources with, naturally, no effect.
    If your intention is to cast a finer net and perhaps explore some overlooked modalities, or, to clean up the fraudulent scams from your base, then that seems useful.
    Taking you at face value and I have no reason not so to do. (Some from the woo based side are very adept at seeming rational for the right audience, but I’m sure that is not the case here). Using only evidence and science based modalities, abandoning ideas which do not pan out, and taking tentative steps on controversial remedies is… well science! Perhaps this is what alternative medicine could be, a kind of rear guard to the big research groups – but then it wouldn’t be alternative. After all what works is medicine what doesn’t is alternative medicine. The term is poisoned and I’m not sure why you use it. Don’t get me wrong I don’t see anything futile with being a massage therapist, though I personally don’t like to be massaged, but that’s a whole other story, it’s just the idea of hanging on to this tainted association “Alt-medicine” seems redundant. Of course having resourceful people “cross over” to our side must be seen as a victory otherwise we just like the sound of our own voices. It seems like you are firmly on our side in everything but name.
    Perhaps in staying in the alternative community we have gained a spy! You might have to change your name, appearance and await orders from James Randi though.
    Hope to see you at TAM 8 this summer.
    Nicky Garratt

    by Nicky Garratt · on November 28, 2009 at 3:26 pm

  5. One element in this exchange that needs some kind of outside verification…

    I’ve known Paul for roughly 20 years. He is absolutely one of ‘us’ in the skeptical sense.

    Nicky is absolutely safe in his assumption implied by: “Some from the woo based side are very adept at seeming rational for the right audience, but I’m sure that is not the case here.”

    …That is unless Paul is in fact some kind of woo-based sleeper-cell amongst us. In which case I am going to feel used and have my sense of trust eternally char-broiled on the coals of spiritual fire-walkers.

    by Kennedy · on November 29, 2009 at 6:44 pm

  6. Thanks for the reply, Nicky, and for the vote of confidence, Kennedy.

    Actually, Nicky, you’ll be glad to hear that I don’t consider myself to be an “alternative” health professional, and I never identify myself as such except for purposes of irony and subversion! I use it only to get people thinking critically about the term. I am painfully aware that it’s been poisoned, and mainly means “alternative to science-based medicine” and freedom from the irritating burden of being held to a consistent standard of knowledge or a standard of quality care.

    Although “alternative” has a few other connotations, some of them perfectly agreeable, it’s fair to say that they have all been more or less drowned out, and are somewhat trivial in any case. When you subtract the anti-science and pseudo-science from alternative medicine, there’s a few pleasant things left over — but not a basis for any one profession, just some values that are essential parts of all health care (like good bedside manner, and the need to emphasize prevention). All this is explored at length in this article, with some piss and vinegar:

    http://SaveYourself.ca/alternativetowhat

    Also note that I have no idea if I’m “staying in the alternative community.” Will I put my money where my mouth is and actually quit my profession in protest? Because I’m embroiled in a legal situation, unfortunately I won’t say more about this at the moment, but … keep watching.

    Regarding Desiree’s statement that there may be massage therapists who believe that they can “cure cancer, multiple sclerosis” and so other serious diseases: true in spirit, but false in the particulars, I think. There are many practices and beliefs prevalent among even the best-trained massage therapies that would irritate any skeptic. However, you’d be hard-pressed to find more than a handful that believe that massage has broad, potent therapeutic effects on major diseases.

    The great majority of questionable beliefs, practices and claims in MT are less sensational (i.e. enthusiasm about modalities like reflexology). This is why my profession is so much less controversial than chiropractic: we don’t stick our necks out as far, and that’s why we tend to get a bit of an (often undeserved) pass from skeptics.

    by Paul Ingraham · on November 30, 2009 at 11:13 am

  7. Paul,
    (Kennedy’s) woo-based sleeper-cell – I like it, of course they haven’t got sufficient gumption. Perhaps I got caught up too much in the headlines; Science-based alternative health? Rebellion within the alt-health ranks? However the statement; “On the other hand, so-called alternative health care is dangerously anti-scientific — as a group, many of us are actually hostile to science. Sometimes we criticize doctors and medical care for some of the right reasons (see above), but more often for the wrong ones. We often seem to think that science is the enemy!” from the article link you referenced emboldens my impression of you as a maverick skeptic within the alternative community. No matter, aside from a couple of issues on which I would disagree, and isn’t that always the way even between we skeptics, we’re of a like-mind. As evidenced by your impressive web site, I’m sure your energy and resourcefulness will help you prevail whichever path you decide on.
    Regards Nicky

    by Nicky Garratt · on December 1, 2009 at 5:17 pm

  8. i’ve been into punk music for most of my adult life and interested in science most of my entire life. There is a lot of skepticism inherent in punk, but there is also a lot of conspiracy theorys and anti-science rhetoric. I just started a Skeptical Punks group on Facebook. Send me a message if you’re Into punk, science, and skepticism. http://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/james.funston?__user=1547535369

    by James Funston · on October 29, 2011 at 1:01 am




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